fallout from "the gay bomb"

[metaphorge]

Inspired by the discussion here:
[Poll #1000850]
My thoughts: of course it is... with the use of extreme enough conditioning techniques, you can condition almost anyone into almost anything (note: this is not saying that it is necessarily easy or ethical to do so).

Making a statement such as "sexual orientation is not changeable" vastly oversimplifies the matrices of to whom and what and why we're attracted to an offensively cartoonish degree.

Just because something about a person can be altered does not mean that it should be.

I vehemently disagree with the tactic of defending equality for queer people on the grounds of "I was born this way, I can't help it." Why do we need to argue that we have justification to fuck whatever person in whatever way we choose as long as all parties are both consenting and qualified to give consent?

We don't need to apologize and we aren't broken. Our orientations don't have to be carved into our genes for us to get to be who we are. This is just the sort of essentialist thinking that is the root of almost all oppression.

I am not a victim of being queer.

Wow, OMFG, I made an LJ post with actual content.

Comments

[twopiearr.livejournal.com]

the statement is too loaded for a binary condition to apply. Sexual orientation can change, just like pretty much all aspects of a person can change, but "is changeable" implies that the change can be forced or executed at will, which I don't think is true for the vast, vast majority.

[metaphorge.livejournal.com]

Yeah, admittedly it is really loaded. I structured my poll question because of the intiial thesis statement found in the linked article.

[autodidactic.livejournal.com]

"Who Cares If It's a Choice", amirite?

[metaphorge.livejournal.com]

Exactitically, ma soeur.

[pope-guilty.livejournal.com]

Bingo.

[metaphorge.livejournal.com]

Was her name-O?

[pope-guilty.livejournal.com]

His or her, whatever.

[serpent-sky.livejournal.com]

See, I said "no," but here's why:

I was 19 or 20 when I realized I was bisexual.

Never mind that I was masturbating to women's prison movies and HBO late night when I was 12, 13, 14... never mind that I loved lesbian sex stories in zines when I was a teenager. Because I grew up in a really Catholic family, the big bad SEX was never discussed, much less deviant sex. So I thought everyone liked stuff that I did, everyone got tied up with Nintendo controllers [my first "bondage" experience] and everyone was just like me.

In college, someone asked me about being bisexual. And I said, "naaah!" And then it occurred to me, like some magical thing: holy crap, I WAS. I AM.

That fucked my head hard for a while, I marinated it, I moved on. I just don't think you can change it.You can try, but deep down, I think a person is who they are.

[metaphorge.livejournal.com]

In truth, I don't really believe there is such a thing as a "sexual orientation". It's too simplistic. I think there are a lot of factors that go into who we want to fuckm and it does end up being a case-by-case basis every time. There may be trends, but in the end it all ends up being subjective.

The two things I can remember that really did it for me during my early sexual development were Videodrome and The Hunger. So, did they get me off because I was into that sort of thing, or am I into that sort of thing because that was what got me off? Which came first, the chicken or the egg?

I also remember being tremendously confused when (don't laugh) seeing David Hasselhoff do the rock star thing on stage at Disneyland made me feel funny below my tummy when I was nine (this was the Knight Rider days, not the Baywatch days, mind you). I did not figure I was bisexual until I was in my twenties because I had no frame of reference that you could do that, like both, and I knew I certainly liked girls.

I think we can agree that our sex drives don't tend to obey who and what we're told by our parents and other authority figures to want. It's likely to be a mix of nature and nurture, and I'm not really sure I care all that much where it came from beyond it being interesting food for thought.

Maybe I like boys because of David Bowie. I can live with that. ;D

[trinsf.livejournal.com]

Yeah, when I was in high school, I actually responded to someone who questioned my possible attraction to a girl by saying, "I know I'm not like that, because I like guys." Homosexuality was acknowledged as existing, but not any sort of spectrum -- just you're either het, or you're gay.

[metaphorge.livejournal.com]

I think that's something that's vastly changed since we went to high school with the rise of bisexual chic, though I'm only guessing as I have no idea what's up with Kids These Days in t3h hinterlands.

[serpent-sky.livejournal.com]

*nod* I knew "the gays" existed, but that wasn't me; I had a boyfriend. So I just assumed everyone masturbated and got off on thoughts of girls; I was just simply shocked when someone asked me if I liked girls; even more so when I first made out with a girl. It was this moment of... there's... something... in the middle??

It really threw me.

Being raised in a pretty Catholic family and going to Catholic school from kindergarten through high school graduation did NOT help in this regard, mind you.

[tenacious-snail.livejournal.com]

I answered "is not changeable", by which I meant "cannot be made to change"

At different times, I've identified as bisexual and as lesbian. And within the bisexual identity, how attracted I am to various people and various genders have changed. But I don't think it can be MADE to change.

counterexample

[metaphorge.livejournal.com]

Men in prison.

Re: counterexample

[tenacious-snail.livejournal.com]

you're right.

Re: counterexample

[serpent-sky.livejournal.com]

I think that's more the sexual urge; the urge for pleasure by any means; overriding sexual orientation, when sexuality of their choice is limited. Many/most of those men in prison resort to their prior "orientation" upon release; it was more a matter of circumstance and the desire for sexual pleasure/release, as well as the control aspect of rape, more than an actual orientation change. In my opinion.

Re: counterexample

[metaphorge.livejournal.com]

I think that's more the sexual urge; the urge for pleasure by any means

Hell, that is my sexual orientation, though you should also tack on "with people I find aesthetically pleasing without psychologically scarring anyone in the process" to get it completely dead-on. :)

[metaphorge.livejournal.com]

I also think (and this is a hunch, no actual hard data ti back this up) that it's more likely for someone's criteria for who they find attractive to broaden rather than narrow (see again the men in prison example).

[tenacious-snail.livejournal.com]

So, my own personal identity was bi from age 8 to 20, lesbian from 20 to 32, and bisexual from 32 to present (39). I think a number of things happened to make that change, and one of the things that happened is I moved to a place where the culture of "what it means to be male" or "what it means to be female" is much broader.

I don't know how much I stopped being attracted to men, for the time I wasn't attracted to them, so much as being Really Not Attracted to sexism. I've found other approaches to that that work better.

I'm queer. That is really more accurately who I am. Both me *and* the culture and community in which I live and love have changed. A bisexual queer identity *works* now in a way it couldn't have 20 years ago. And I continue to find queers of various genders attractive.

My attempt at a succinct post is failing, as I don't know how to explain queerness, sexism, sexual orientation, gender roles, essentialism, and ten other things that seem relevant all in one post.

[metaphorge.livejournal.com]

I'm queer. That is really more accurately who I am. Both me *and* the culture and community in which I live and love have changed. A bisexual queer identity *works* now in a way it couldn't have 20 years ago. And I continue to find queers of various genders attractive.

Amen. Gosh, when was the last time I was attracted to someone who was not queer? Wow, that's been awhile.

My attempt at a succinct post is failing, as I don't know how to explain queerness, sexism, sexual orientation, gender roles, essentialism, and ten other things that seem relevant all in one post.

I think you just did above.

[tenacious-snail.livejournal.com]

I'm both squee!yay! that you think I did, but also "*pout*, I could talk theory and praxis for hours and hours, why won't you play with me?"

[trinsf.livejournal.com]

Just, well, I have to say that I know it *can* be, because I know people who have chosen to do so. For parts of the history of radical feminism, there have been women who rejected heterosexuality for basically political reasons. I knew of women within my social and academic circles who identified as lesbians not because they had grown up wanting to fuck women, but because they embraced the idea that all heterosexual sex is rape in a patriarchal culture, and were making a stand against that culture by refusing to accept their "heterocentric socialization".

I also think that yeah, with enough conditioning, you can pretty much turn anyone into anything.

[mactavish.livejournal.com]

Hm. I want tickyboxen.

[metaphorge.livejournal.com]

No! Haven't you seen the research... bitextuals DO NOT EXIST!


;P

also, did you know

[metaphorge.livejournal.com]

Hutts are hermaphroditic?

;P

[amberite.livejournal.com]

People are born living, but we could change that and make everyone dead! :D

Well spoken.

[metaphorge.livejournal.com]

Danke schoen.

[ineffabelle]

bravo! This post kicks ass!!

"Wow, OMFG, I made a LJ post with actual content."
I guess you've been saving it up for a really good one :)
(although I still think it should be "an LJ post"...)

Also, to extend your argument, there's "alteration" and there's "alteration"... you might be able to create a desire-based (meaning a "towards, rather than away") compulsion, but certain factors of attraction will be much more resistant to change... (i.e. pheromonal reactions, visual-cortex reflexes)

Which just goes to your larger point that "sexual orientation" is much more complex than people normally treat it as... I know that for sure by my own experiences.

[green-fae.livejournal.com]

I think people are pre-programmed.
You can coerce, train, repress, or force a person to do things that are not in their nature, but
a kissing a girl on screen did not make Rock Hudson straight any more than my female friend who went on a date and kissed a girl (when strongly goaded by her fellow art-class friends to "liberate" her)could become gay. That was her first and last gay kiss, she honestly prefers the cock.

I am no more a victim of being bisexual than of being 5'3, I could wear heels,
I could try to be lesbian, but it would not change how the gods made me.
People could blame it on going to a "liberal" college, but looking back I played doctor with
little boys *and* little girls.

[metaphorge.livejournal.com]

My controversial (and not completely certain) opinion: people only become monosexuals through conditioning.

[twopiearr.livejournal.com]

I dunno...not that my own life is statistically significant, but my own memories are of not really finding anyone attractive until i was about 7 or so, and then finding women attractive.

All of this was before I really became consciously aware of sexuality vis gender roles. But when I was about 9 I discovered that my "Uncle Chris" (a friend of my mother's from her graduate program) was gay. My response was...oh, that's interesting. (Ironically my not-being-weirded-out-ness so weirded HIM out that that was the last we saw of him. Ah well.) And then there was Uncle Don and Uncle Joe, who my parents just treated like any other married couple, so it never occurred to me to wonder but that such combinations existed.

This is not to say I've never found men attractive, but I've never really fantasized about men, nor have I ever really been driven to.

Saw a pre-op MTF with really well done breasts have sex with a woman in a porn film once. I wasn't repulsed but I wasn't turned on. Never really watched any all-male, so no data there.

[uber-pochacco.livejournal.com]

Actually, Freud said something similar. He said that bisexuality was the default position for people, and anything else was just a conditioned specialization of sexual object.

I guess that doesn't really make it less controversial, though, *grin*.

[green-fae.livejournal.com]

Well, monosexuality is a head-scratcher for me, I have definate turn-offs
and deal-breakers, but they are not based on gender.

On the other hand, I have known people who are actually totally stright or gay and
although it boggles my mind, who am I to question their lack of interest in the other sex
any more than I want them to question my interest in both?

But yes, that was part of my point, with enough incentive or coercion, you can entice or force people to behave any way you want. Maybe people believe they must choose one side or the other and repress their innate bi potential. But that sounds too pretentious to ponder aloud.

[zare-k.livejournal.com]

My, that's quite a can of worms. My response, not backed up by any particular scientific study, is that there are unchangeable limits to what kinds of people one can be attracted to, but that these limits are also broader than we tend to think. Some people will only be attracted to the opposite sex, ever. Others, to use your men in prison example, will find the scope of their attractions changing with circumstances and resource scarcity (a potential that was always there, just latent). Still others will find their attractions changing and shifting over time.

I do agree with you that the "we're born that way, it's not our fault" argument is ultimately unproductive (and perhaps harmful). Being queer is not an unfortunate congenital condition like cerebral palsy. I do not feel that I would be /better off/ if I were straight, nor do I wish to be tolerated until I can be cured.

[quodlibetic.livejournal.com]

I maintain that I don't fall for a gender, I fall for a person. I could give a crap about what parts they have or lack.

[elric-dewisant.livejournal.com]

"Wow, OMFG, I made an LJ post with actual content."

Where? All posts on LJ with content MUST be removed and replaced with memes!!! XD

No. I agree. Sexuality is, for some, fluid. I say for some, because I know more people who have had relationships that have lasted 50-60 years (including a few same sex partnerships, or whatever term they use to describe their relationship). But I've also known self-proclaimed gay and bi men, who seemed perfectly happy in their relationships and activities, but slowly, over time (never BOOM, wake up tomorrow and be all Don't be Gay, Sparky!) changed from desiring one gender to desiring the other gender.

Sexuality, just like gender, is a fluid continuum. How fluid? Buy a case of beer and find out. ;P

[wakingdreaming.livejournal.com]

I completely agree with you.

[traumentwerfer.livejournal.com]

Wow- you said it in exactly the way I think of it.

So I have an interesting question for you:

How do we explain the Christian Ex-Gay Camps tending to fail miserably?

Perhaps they don't know how to reimprint properly?
Perhaps it can only work if the gay people in question genuinely
deep down *want* to change (and perhaps they don't)?

I also direct you to a related post I made awhile back.

[espiritkat.livejournal.com]

Everything is changeable.

[kalieris.livejournal.com]

I couldn't really answer, not because of the whole brainwashing thing but because I know that my own self-proclaimed orientation has changed over time. Not sure if that can be defined as change in orientation, or change in awareness of orientation though.

[ysabel.livejournal.com]

Mu.

i suppose i should read comments, but...

[kiwitayro.livejournal.com]

i'm distraught & this is distracting, so i won't.

orientation seems to imply something one orients oneself towards (or against, i suppose), and is therefore entirely mutable whenever one wishes to reorient oneself.

i know a lovely lovely lesbian couple, both of whom were once married to men. were they "secretly gay" before? were they "secretly bi?" are they really Not True Lesbians now because they were once married to (and presumably having sex with) men?

more importantly, do i care? i guess if i was a man trying to convince one of them to sleep with me, i would. but otherwise? not so much.

this comment brought to you by the letter: "buh?"

[mistressxenobia.livejournal.com]

Oh hell.
I change my sexual orientation regularly depending on how hot the person I'm looking at is.