Esozone Panel: Mutant Meatspace Networks
Aug. 11th, 2007 12:24 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
metaphorgemoderator: Klint Finley was the co-founder of the online community Key 23, is the organizer and co-founder of Portland Occulture, and the executive director of esoZone.
panelists: Trevor Blake has been a member in good standing of the Church of the Subgenius since 1982. He was a member of the Temple ov Psychick Youth in the 80s, and was present at the first Portland Occulture meetup. He is an amateur archivist and historian of the underground, and is the secretary of Portland Occulture. He publishes the seminal zine OVO and has recently completed a book on atheism.
Johnny Brainwash (![[livejournal.com profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/external/lj-userinfo.gif)
johnnybrainwash) has several years of experience in activist organizations - notably with Earth First!, an early radical green organization. He was an early member of Portland Occulture, and an active member of the annual Discordian event, KallistiCon. He maintains a website at .. and publishes the zine Primer.
Edward Wilson (fenris23), aka Fenris23, is an extremely prolific online community member. He's been an active poster on Barbelith, Suicide Girls, Frequency 23, Irreality, and Key 23/64. He was a founder of Vancouver Occult, has been active in Suicide Girls meat-space events, and was an early organizer of esoZone and serves as one of our MCs. He's also co-authoring a book with Wes Unruh.
Autumn Tyr-Salvia (tyrsalvia) spends a lot of time thinking about community. She got her start in San Francisco's Cacophony Society. She founded Discordian.com in 1998, and has been a big part of organizing an annual Discordian convention, KallstiCon since 2001.
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Klint: Much of the effort, or at least attention, in the creation of mutant communities centers around creating "off the grid" autonomous communities. The "back to the land" movement, Hakim Bey, P.M. etc. fostered grand visions of big communes and autonomous zones, self-sustaining and insulated from the rest of the world. But autonomous communities are difficult, if not impossible, to create and sustain. Is it important for communities to strive for autonomy or is this a counter-productive goal?
Trevor: Community is more about finding one than forming one. The more self sufficient an individual can be on their own the more they can contribute to community.
johnnybrainwash: Idea of autonomy outside of larger society is largely illusionary. The "autonomy" of Bey's TAZ often emphasized over the "temporary". Building completely separate communities doomed to fail; communities must have autonomy but exist within broader society, not completely separate. Insular community fosters radicalization and ultimately loses relevance.
fenris23: Working towards personal autonomy within a community often more important than the community being autonomous from larger society.
tyrsalvia: Autonomous community idea similar to "dropping out", at a certain point too much insulation doesn't produce lasting change. Change has to be spread ideas beyond small community. Small community
fenris23: Shaman has to leave the village to bring medicine to the world beyond the village.
Klint: Why expand beyond online to meatspace?
tyrsalvia: Kallisticon started to make sure Discordianism existed beyond an internet joke. Realrworld interaction often taken more seriously than
tyrsalvia: Meatspace interaction often creates different and/or better ideas.
johnnybrainwash: Posturing does not carry over to realworld as much.
Trevor: Online bonding and media no substitute for in-person interaction. Virtual community susceptible to technical problems. Realworld interaction creates stronger bonds.
tyrsalvia: Real interaction fosters important tangential evolution, fosters personal life involvement that defines online urge to stay "on topic".
fenris23: In-person meetups more fun and enthusiastic. In person impressions carry back over into online interaction.
johnnybrainwash: Somewhat surprisingly, not all worthwhile collaborators have an online presence. Meatspace events bring in less "connected" collaborators.
Trevor: Physical movement necessary for increased health, ability to continue online interaction.
Klint: What's the hardest thing about meatspace interactions?
Trevor: Personality conflicts and pragmatic considerations potentially more complex. Certain cross-pollination only happen in meatspace.
tyrsalvia: Question of leadership and who decides "what to do next" and how is action decided?
johnnybrainwash: Who the leaders are and how organization works more apparent in person. Greater accountability for resources needed.
fenris23: Leadership and organizational ability not necessary the same thing. Detail-oriented people are needed.
tyrsalvia: Pagan community puts emphasis on "every person their own priest". Too many indians not enough chiefs. Often leaders need strong organizer to help them, followers are also important.
johnnybrainwash: Experience working on projects prepares individuals for leadership in the future. Event attendees later start their own events.
Trevor: Leaders often the person who 'comes first". Spin-offs of events often become their own bigger deal. Too much emphasis on commonality can lead to isolation of the group. Perspective needed for those suffering outside the "in-group".
Klint: How do you deal with "undesirables" who ruin gatherings for other participants?
fenris23: Difficult question, want to balance people's ability to be autonomous with not allowing them to drive off other group members. Sometimes you have to be the "bad guy".
tyrsalvia: Taken inspiration from vagina_pagina's decentralization of being the "bad guy" to deal with problem members, build consensus rather than letting a single individual ask someone to leave. Explain what the problem is, make it about behavior rather than the individual.
johnnybrainwash: Ways to deflect behavior instead of making it a confrontation, spend time with them outside of the group setting to smooth over problems.
tyrsalvia: Everyone has something to offer, sometimes you have to find out what it is. Foster accountability to bring someone "into" the group. Such investments can often pay off.
fenris23: Sometimes someone who does not work with a particular activity they will work out in another activity.
Trevor: Important to realize that we can't always all "get along". Different levels of involvement, greater access as people learn to work with each other. Sometimes codifying what is expected makes it less personal, especially when these expectations are reached by group consensus.
johnnybrainwash: Lengthy association can allow respect when people don't click in person.
Klint: Problem of male domination of occult groups and gatherings, how do we deal with this?
fenris23: Her analysis of the tokenism issue brought tyrsalvia to this panel.
tyrsalvia: Look at academic studies of gendered communications styles, women often have more consensus-based discourse than men, "dick swinging" is a problem, perception of hostility can alienate women based on social expectation. Important to observe feminist discourse styles and incorporate the good from that. Bias against stereotypically "feminine" attitudes and energies in occult community. Essentialist views of what men and women behave like need to be questioned.
Trevor: Some groups are single-gender groups, sometimes groups are self-selecting.
tyrsalvia: Sometimes diversity needs to examine how people interact, not just their interest.
Klint: To what extent can you foster diversity.
fenris23: Sometime outsiders need to push harder, insiders need to recognize and address shortcomings that prevent diversity.
johnnybrainwash: Agreed. Should not force people to become "calloused" in order to participate. Limit size of discussions to allow for more participation. Get an outside observer to come in and critique interaction style, be aware of image to the outside.
tyrsalvia: Welcoming attitude necessary, solution not to just recruit a particular group that is missing. Need to develop interaction styles that keep people from being talked over, "talking stick", moderated discussion.
Trevor: Examine interaction styles of different groups to better understand and judge people on their individual traits more so than group identity.
tyrsalvia: Observe interactions of different groups.
Audience: Main problem with being here in meatspace is that it limits to a single track of communication can speak at a time vs. ability for many people to contribute at the same time.
Nick: Addresses "tokenism", need for diversity at Key23. Be up front if you are seeking diversity when selecting contributor as they'll probably know it any way. "Narcissism of small differences" often found in left-leaning groups. Why are we so bad at overcoming small differences?
johnnybrainwash: "We're a bunch of intellectualized egotistical presumptuous assholes." Theory-heaviness often leads to this, Trotskyites example. Start with studying extensively, easier to highlight differences rather than commonality. Practice helps overcome this.
Trevor: Also things that the "right" is jealous of, lack of their individualism. Progressive groups prone to splitting because they empower individuals; we need to learn infrastructure of how to "get along" because we have to.
Audience: The internet is better suited to share found information, meatspace a better opportunity to examine ourselves and who we are and what we're about. Interaction and critique flow more easily.
tyrsalvia: Meatspace more fostering of cross-pollination of ideas than highly specific online discussion.
Audience: Less distraction in meatspace from other online sources (mail, myspace, etc.)
Trevor: "Meeting people best process for moving coffee around."
fenris23: Internet better fosters ability to have in-person meetings.
Audience: Internet more efficient sorting mechanism for finding like minds, in-person meetings weeds out posturing. Internet reaction more likely to be cold, adversarial. In-person meetups solve conflicts from online communication styles.
tyrsalvia: Often easier to assess strengths and weaknesses after meeting online, find out what people are actually good at vs. what they think they are good at.
Trevor: Much more experience with in-person interaction than technological means, important skill set, can get you laid.
tyrsalvia: Getting laid is very important.
johnnybrainwash: Still need in-person interaction practice, work on how to interact with people who have differences in viewpoint.
tyrsalvia: Something to be gained from observing how people interact with others who are different, can tell what will happen in a crisis or conflict.
fenris23: Has a personal commandment to talk to a stranger everyday.
Klint: Remember to tip the bartender. He's awesome.
Audience: Comment on social anxiety issues, comfort levels of online vs. offline interaction.
tyrsalvia: Offer "safe space" for people to interact, lower pressure to socially interact, give people an activity.
johnnybrainwash: Activist group mailing parties work on that principle. Important to make people comfortable with offline interaction, bring people "out of their shell".
tyrsalvia: Can bring people out by giving them responsibility that does not involve in person interaction to get them more comfortable and feeling they belong. Newsletter articles, web design, make something.
Trevor: Grew up in a small southern US town, did not have many "weird" people to interact with, found in group through reading, writing for zines. Skill set did not transfer, had to develop in-person skills.
Klint: Closing words?
johnnybrainwash: Plea for people to take unglamorous roles, clean-up, dishes etc. which are vital.
Trevor: Steve Jobs quote, technology does not change the world as much as we thing, have perspective. Thanks people for coming to EsoZone, mighty oaks come from acorns.
fenris23: Also thanks people for coming. Excellent questions. Get to know me!
tyrsalvia: EsoZone is a primordial soup. Beautiful thing of realspace community is the random inspiration it provides.
Plug for Kallisticon.
panelists: Trevor Blake has been a member in good standing of the Church of the Subgenius since 1982. He was a member of the Temple ov Psychick Youth in the 80s, and was present at the first Portland Occulture meetup. He is an amateur archivist and historian of the underground, and is the secretary of Portland Occulture. He publishes the seminal zine OVO and has recently completed a book on atheism.
Johnny Brainwash (
johnnybrainwash) has several years of experience in activist organizations - notably with Earth First!, an early radical green organization. He was an early member of Portland Occulture, and an active member of the annual Discordian event, KallistiCon. He maintains a website at .. and publishes the zine Primer. Edward Wilson (
fenris23), aka Fenris23, is an extremely prolific online community member. He's been an active poster on Barbelith, Suicide Girls, Frequency 23, Irreality, and Key 23/64. He was a founder of Vancouver Occult, has been active in Suicide Girls meat-space events, and was an early organizer of esoZone and serves as one of our MCs. He's also co-authoring a book with Wes Unruh.Autumn Tyr-Salvia (
tyrsalvia) spends a lot of time thinking about community. She got her start in San Francisco's Cacophony Society. She founded Discordian.com in 1998, and has been a big part of organizing an annual Discordian convention, KallstiCon since 2001. ------------------------------------------------------------------------
Klint: Much of the effort, or at least attention, in the creation of mutant communities centers around creating "off the grid" autonomous communities. The "back to the land" movement, Hakim Bey, P.M. etc. fostered grand visions of big communes and autonomous zones, self-sustaining and insulated from the rest of the world. But autonomous communities are difficult, if not impossible, to create and sustain. Is it important for communities to strive for autonomy or is this a counter-productive goal?
Trevor: Community is more about finding one than forming one. The more self sufficient an individual can be on their own the more they can contribute to community.
johnnybrainwash: Idea of autonomy outside of larger society is largely illusionary. The "autonomy" of Bey's TAZ often emphasized over the "temporary". Building completely separate communities doomed to fail; communities must have autonomy but exist within broader society, not completely separate. Insular community fosters radicalization and ultimately loses relevance.fenris23: Working towards personal autonomy within a community often more important than the community being autonomous from larger society.tyrsalvia: Autonomous community idea similar to "dropping out", at a certain point too much insulation doesn't produce lasting change. Change has to be spread ideas beyond small community. Small community fenris23: Shaman has to leave the village to bring medicine to the world beyond the village.Klint: Why expand beyond online to meatspace?
tyrsalvia: Kallisticon started to make sure Discordianism existed beyond an internet joke. Realrworld interaction often taken more seriously thantyrsalvia: Meatspace interaction often creates different and/or better ideas.johnnybrainwash: Posturing does not carry over to realworld as much.Trevor: Online bonding and media no substitute for in-person interaction. Virtual community susceptible to technical problems. Realworld interaction creates stronger bonds.
tyrsalvia: Real interaction fosters important tangential evolution, fosters personal life involvement that defines online urge to stay "on topic".fenris23: In-person meetups more fun and enthusiastic. In person impressions carry back over into online interaction.johnnybrainwash: Somewhat surprisingly, not all worthwhile collaborators have an online presence. Meatspace events bring in less "connected" collaborators.Trevor: Physical movement necessary for increased health, ability to continue online interaction.
Klint: What's the hardest thing about meatspace interactions?
Trevor: Personality conflicts and pragmatic considerations potentially more complex. Certain cross-pollination only happen in meatspace.
tyrsalvia: Question of leadership and who decides "what to do next" and how is action decided?johnnybrainwash: Who the leaders are and how organization works more apparent in person. Greater accountability for resources needed.fenris23: Leadership and organizational ability not necessary the same thing. Detail-oriented people are needed.tyrsalvia: Pagan community puts emphasis on "every person their own priest". Too many indians not enough chiefs. Often leaders need strong organizer to help them, followers are also important.johnnybrainwash: Experience working on projects prepares individuals for leadership in the future. Event attendees later start their own events.Trevor: Leaders often the person who 'comes first". Spin-offs of events often become their own bigger deal. Too much emphasis on commonality can lead to isolation of the group. Perspective needed for those suffering outside the "in-group".
Klint: How do you deal with "undesirables" who ruin gatherings for other participants?
fenris23: Difficult question, want to balance people's ability to be autonomous with not allowing them to drive off other group members. Sometimes you have to be the "bad guy".tyrsalvia: Taken inspiration from vagina_pagina's decentralization of being the "bad guy" to deal with problem members, build consensus rather than letting a single individual ask someone to leave. Explain what the problem is, make it about behavior rather than the individual.johnnybrainwash: Ways to deflect behavior instead of making it a confrontation, spend time with them outside of the group setting to smooth over problems.tyrsalvia: Everyone has something to offer, sometimes you have to find out what it is. Foster accountability to bring someone "into" the group. Such investments can often pay off.fenris23: Sometimes someone who does not work with a particular activity they will work out in another activity.Trevor: Important to realize that we can't always all "get along". Different levels of involvement, greater access as people learn to work with each other. Sometimes codifying what is expected makes it less personal, especially when these expectations are reached by group consensus.
johnnybrainwash: Lengthy association can allow respect when people don't click in person.Klint: Problem of male domination of occult groups and gatherings, how do we deal with this?
fenris23: Her analysis of the tokenism issue brought tyrsalvia to this panel.tyrsalvia: Look at academic studies of gendered communications styles, women often have more consensus-based discourse than men, "dick swinging" is a problem, perception of hostility can alienate women based on social expectation. Important to observe feminist discourse styles and incorporate the good from that. Bias against stereotypically "feminine" attitudes and energies in occult community. Essentialist views of what men and women behave like need to be questioned. Trevor: Some groups are single-gender groups, sometimes groups are self-selecting.
tyrsalvia: Sometimes diversity needs to examine how people interact, not just their interest.Klint: To what extent can you foster diversity.
fenris23: Sometime outsiders need to push harder, insiders need to recognize and address shortcomings that prevent diversity.johnnybrainwash: Agreed. Should not force people to become "calloused" in order to participate. Limit size of discussions to allow for more participation. Get an outside observer to come in and critique interaction style, be aware of image to the outside.tyrsalvia: Welcoming attitude necessary, solution not to just recruit a particular group that is missing. Need to develop interaction styles that keep people from being talked over, "talking stick", moderated discussion.Trevor: Examine interaction styles of different groups to better understand and judge people on their individual traits more so than group identity.
tyrsalvia: Observe interactions of different groups.Audience: Main problem with being here in meatspace is that it limits to a single track of communication can speak at a time vs. ability for many people to contribute at the same time.
Nick: Addresses "tokenism", need for diversity at Key23. Be up front if you are seeking diversity when selecting contributor as they'll probably know it any way. "Narcissism of small differences" often found in left-leaning groups. Why are we so bad at overcoming small differences?
johnnybrainwash: "We're a bunch of intellectualized egotistical presumptuous assholes." Theory-heaviness often leads to this, Trotskyites example. Start with studying extensively, easier to highlight differences rather than commonality. Practice helps overcome this.Trevor: Also things that the "right" is jealous of, lack of their individualism. Progressive groups prone to splitting because they empower individuals; we need to learn infrastructure of how to "get along" because we have to.
Audience: The internet is better suited to share found information, meatspace a better opportunity to examine ourselves and who we are and what we're about. Interaction and critique flow more easily.
tyrsalvia: Meatspace more fostering of cross-pollination of ideas than highly specific online discussion.Audience: Less distraction in meatspace from other online sources (mail, myspace, etc.)
Trevor: "Meeting people best process for moving coffee around."
fenris23: Internet better fosters ability to have in-person meetings.Audience: Internet more efficient sorting mechanism for finding like minds, in-person meetings weeds out posturing. Internet reaction more likely to be cold, adversarial. In-person meetups solve conflicts from online communication styles.
tyrsalvia: Often easier to assess strengths and weaknesses after meeting online, find out what people are actually good at vs. what they think they are good at.Trevor: Much more experience with in-person interaction than technological means, important skill set, can get you laid.
tyrsalvia: Getting laid is very important.johnnybrainwash: Still need in-person interaction practice, work on how to interact with people who have differences in viewpoint.tyrsalvia: Something to be gained from observing how people interact with others who are different, can tell what will happen in a crisis or conflict.fenris23: Has a personal commandment to talk to a stranger everyday.Klint: Remember to tip the bartender. He's awesome.
Audience: Comment on social anxiety issues, comfort levels of online vs. offline interaction.
tyrsalvia: Offer "safe space" for people to interact, lower pressure to socially interact, give people an activity.johnnybrainwash: Activist group mailing parties work on that principle. Important to make people comfortable with offline interaction, bring people "out of their shell".tyrsalvia: Can bring people out by giving them responsibility that does not involve in person interaction to get them more comfortable and feeling they belong. Newsletter articles, web design, make something.Trevor: Grew up in a small southern US town, did not have many "weird" people to interact with, found in group through reading, writing for zines. Skill set did not transfer, had to develop in-person skills.
Klint: Closing words?
johnnybrainwash: Plea for people to take unglamorous roles, clean-up, dishes etc. which are vital.Trevor: Steve Jobs quote, technology does not change the world as much as we thing, have perspective. Thanks people for coming to EsoZone, mighty oaks come from acorns.
fenris23: Also thanks people for coming. Excellent questions. Get to know me!tyrsalvia: EsoZone is a primordial soup. Beautiful thing of realspace community is the random inspiration it provides.Plug for Kallisticon.
